Palermo Race 9

5F Stakes

Stake: $8,823

GRAND ROY (4) turned in a fine effort to score by one length at this course and distance last time out to build on a solid first-up result. Finds another suitable race and can go on with the job. SOL SORPRESIVO (7) finished third at this track two runs back but didn't measure up last time over 1400m at this track, finishing well back. Has started two times at this course and distance and is yet to miss the placings. Has the ability to take care of this field. AFFIRMED JOHAN (1) progressed nicely last time out at the second run of the campaign and finished 2 lengths from the winner in third over 800m at Tandil. He is good enough to take this out. ALABAMA CITY (2) finished second last start at the first run back from a spell over 1100m at this track, beaten 1.5 lengths. He strips fitter and can go one better.

Distance: 1000m
Track: Good
Weather: -
Surface: Dirt
Class: -

Racing and Sports™ Trusted form provider for 20+ years

Affirmed Johan (1) 6221x71x43
Trainer: Alfredo Ernesto Casco ()
Jockey: Wilfredo Andres Torres Maldonado
Weight: 57kg
Prize Money: $8,870
Win / Place: 25% / 62%

5 yo Chestnut Horse

Sire: CURIOSO JOHAN (ARG)

Dam: LA LA LOLA (USA)

Rating

Stats

Career

8: 2-2-1

Distance

3: 0-1-0

Trk/Dst

1: 0-0-0

Track

1: 0-0-0

Season

4: 1-0-1

1st Up

3: 0-0-0

2nd Up

3: 1-1-1

3rd Up

1: 0-1-0

4th Up

1: 1-0-0

Dirt

8: 2-2-1

Anti-Clockwise

5: 1-2-0

Jockey Stats

Horse

1: 0-0-0

Last 50

0: 0-0-0

Trainer

W 0% P 0%

Distance

W 0% P 0%

Track

W 0% P 0%

Trainer/Track

W 0% P 0%

Trainer/Distance

W 0% P 0%

Distance Range Last 6 months

800m - 1000m

Comments

Third-up today and placed third-up previously. Resuming 4th of 7 at this track on February 8 over 1000m, 2.25 len behind Sir Amadeus carrying 53kg at $13.25. Second run from a spell 3rd in a small field at Tandil on February 23 over 800m, 2 len behind El Califa Johan with 57kg at $4.35. Genuine contender under these conditions.

Expected Settling Position: No speed data

Last Starts days since last start

Place	Date	Track	Distance	Class	Barrier	Jockey	Weight	Cond.	Race Time	Avg. Speed	Margin	800/400	SP	Days	Prize	Prize Won	Result
3rd of 6	23/2/25	Tandil	800m	ALW CG 4U	6	Orlando Pehuen Roncoli	57kg	FM	0:45.74	63.0 km/h	2.0L	-	$4.35	15	$2,300	$297	1. El Califa Johan 2. Ree Eclipse 3. Affirmed Johan
4th of 7	8/2/25	Palermo	1000m	ALW CG 5U	8	Wilfredo Andres Torres Maldonado	53kg	FM	0:56.04	64.2 km/h	2.3L	-	$13	74	$9,583	$527	1. Sir Amadeus 2. Wish You Luck 3. La Puketa
74 Day Spell
1st of 7	26/11/24	Tandil	800m	ALW CG 4U	6	Orlando Pehuen Roncoli	57kg	FM	0:46.26	62.3 km/h	2.0L	-	$11	26	$1,967	$1,019	1. Affirmed Johan 2. Ree Eclipse 3. Mina Bonita
7th of 10	31/10/24	Tandil	800m	ALW CG 5U	2	Orlando Pehuen Roncoli	55kg	FM	0:45.00	64.0 km/h	12.5L	-	$15	329	$1,917	$30	1. Ernestina Fitz 2. Ojo Con Estirpe 3. Fotolog
329 Day Spell
1st of 6	7/12/23	La Plata	1100m	MSW CG 4	2	Borda Gonzalo Damian	57kg	Heavy	1:07.84	58.4 km/h	2.0L	-	$2.25f	30	$6,935	$3,650	1. Affirmed Johan 2. Patricio Cap 3. Don Tormentoso
2nd of 11	7/11/23	La Plata	1100m	MSW CG 4	1	Borda Gonzalo Damian	57kg	Heavy	1:05.55	60.4 km/h	1.0L	-	$3.20f	37	$8,112	$1,575	1. Grilldado 2. Affirmed Johan 3. Maipo Hit
37 Day Freshen-Up

Alabama City (2) 53152x36x2
Trainer: Gerardo Alteño ()
Jockey: Ramiro Salazar
Weight: 57kg
Prize Money: $26,996
Win / Place: 14% / 64%

5 yo Chestnut Horse

Sire: CITYSCAPE (GB)

Dam: ALDEANA JANE (ARG)

Rating

Stats

Career

14: 2-4-3

Track

11: 1-4-2

Season

3: 0-1-1

1st Up

4: 1-1-1

2nd Up

3: 0-1-0

3rd Up

2: 0-0-1

4th Up

2: 1-1-0

Turf

1: 0-0-0

Dirt

13: 2-4-3

Fast

1: 0-0-0

Anti-Clockwise

14: 2-4-3

Jockey Stats

Horse

3: 0-1-1

Last 50

0: 0-0-0

Trainer

W 0% P 0%

Distance

W 0% P 0%

Track

W 0% P 0%

Trainer/Track

W 0% P 0%

Trainer/Distance

W 0% P 0%

Distance Range Last 6 months

1100m - 1200m

Comments

Second run back. First-up after four months 2nd of 7 at this track on February 17 over 1100m, 1.5 len behind Grilldado carrying 55kg at $9.40. Previously second-up 6th of 9 at this track on October 14 over 1200m, 3.5 len behind Bajo El Cielo with 54.5kg at $3.10. Fitter and worth including.

Expected Settling Position: No speed data

Last Starts days since last start

Place	Date	Track	Distance	Class	Barrier	Jockey	Weight	Cond.	Race Time	Avg. Speed	Margin	800/400	SP	Days	Prize	Prize Won	Result
2nd of 7	17/2/25	Palermo	1100m	ALW CG 5U	5	Ramiro Salazar	55kg	FM	1:02.10	63.8 km/h	1.5L	-	$9.40	126	$4,749	$894	1. Grilldado 2. Alabama City 3. War Flashbacks
126 Day Spell
6th of 9	14/10/24	Palermo	1200m	ALW CG 5U	6	Ramiro Salazar	54.5kg	FM	1:10.98	60.9 km/h	3.5L	-	$3.10f	40	$9,518	$199	1. Bajo El Cielo 2. Sol Sorpresivo 3. Big Tiger
40 Day Freshen-Up
3rd of 9	4/9/24	San Isidro	1200m	ALW CG 5U	1	Ramiro Salazar	54kg	FM	1:10.54	61.2 km/h	5.5L	-	$5.30	268	$3,544	$417	1. Sello Viejo 2. Big Tiger 3. Alabama City
268 Day Spell
2nd of 6	11/12/23	Palermo	1400m	ALW CG 42	5	Rodrigo Daniel Bascu An	57kg	FM	1:21.50	61.8 km/h	0.5L	-	$8.85	23	$12,600	$2,517	1. Interpretado Johan 2. Alabama City 3. Rumiñahui
5th of 6	18/11/23	Palermo	1600m	ALW CG 4	2	Brian Rodrigo Enrique	57kg	FM	1:35.92	60.1 km/h	13.0L	-	$7.65	24	$14,669	$425	1. Western Camp 2. Kavac 3. Sebi Torres
1st of 6	25/10/23	San Isidro	1400m	ALW CG 4	3	Rodrigo Daniel Bascu An	57kg	FM	1:22.89	60.8 km/h	6.0L	-	$2.55f	9	$9,653	$5,678	1. Alabama City 2. King In The North 3. Con Exceso

Tirao Y Anclao (3) x8x08x6x26
Trainer: Ruben Oscar Lazzaro ()
Jockey: Borda Gonzalo Damian
Weight: 57kg
Prize Money: $14,792
Win / Place: 5.00% / 25%

5 yo Chestnut Horse

Sire: MANIPULATOR (USA)

Dam: SEPTIMA SINFONIA (ARG)

Rating

Stats

Career

20: 1-3-1

Distance

4: 0-1-0

Trk/Dst

3: 0-1-0

Track

4: 0-1-0

Season

3: 0-1-0

1st Up

8: 0-2-1

2nd Up

5: 0-1-0

3rd Up

3: 1-0-0

4th Up

2: 0-0-0

Turf

1: 0-0-0

Dirt

19: 1-3-1

Fast

1: 0-0-0

Anti-Clockwise

20: 1-3-1

Jockey Stats

Horse

2: 0-1-0

Last 50

0: 0-0-0

Trainer

W 0% P 0%

Distance

W 0% P 0%

Track

W 0% P 0%

Trainer/Track

W 0% P 0%

Trainer/Distance

W 0% P 0%

Distance Range Last 6 months

1000m - 1300m

Comments

Third-up today and won third-up in the past. First-up 2nd of 7 at this track on January 20 over 1000m, in the wet; 3 len behind Pride Of Place carrying 57kg at $27. Last start second last of 7 at this track on February 8 over 1000m, 6 len behind Sir Amadeus carrying 57kg at $7.75. Will need plenty of improvement to feature.

Expected Settling Position: No speed data

Last Starts days since last start

Place	Date	Track	Distance	Class	Barrier	Jockey	Weight	Cond.	Race Time	Avg. Speed	Margin	800/400	SP	Days	Prize	Prize Won	Result
6th of 7	8/2/25	Palermo	1000m	ALW CG 5U	1	Borda Gonzalo Damian	57kg	FM	0:56.04	64.2 km/h	6.0L	-	$7.75	19	$9,583	$204	1. Sir Amadeus 2. Wish You Luck 3. La Puketa
2nd of 7	20/1/25	Palermo	1000m	ALW CG 5U	2	Borda Gonzalo Damian	57kg	Heavy	0:57.23	62.9 km/h	3.0L	-	$27	101	$5,266	$912	1. Pride Of Place 2. Tirao Y Anclao 3. Suggestive Sun
101 Day Spell
6th of 8	11/10/24	San Isidro	1300m	ALW CG 5U	9	Lucas Francisco Gonzalez	53kg	FM	1:16.34	61.3 km/h	11.0L	-	$20	76	$3,939	-	1. Septimo Regimiento 2. Baby Rash 3. Reliable Manipulator
76 Day Spell
8th of 11	27/7/24	Palermo	1200m	ALW CG 5U	2	Brian Rodrigo Enrique	57kg	FM	1:09.31	62.3 km/h	14.5L	-	$38	26	$8,226	$186	1. Le Moore 2. Dom Eloi 3. Sr. Portal
11th of 13	1/7/24	Palermo	1000m	ALW CG 4	12	Brian Rodrigo Enrique	57kg	FM	0:54.77	65.7 km/h	9.0L	-	$23	80	$5,055	-	1. Super Mito 2. Sol Sorpresivo 3. War Flashbacks
80 Day Spell
8th of 8	12/4/24	La Plata	1400m	ALW CG 4U	1	Franklin Daniel Caceres	53kg	FM	1:25.44	59.0 km/h	16.5L	-	$13	76	$5,170	$63	1. Haka Maori 2. Hilando Fino 3. Super Win
76 Day Spell

Grand Roy (4) 2232211x31
Trainer: Mauricio Hernan Genzano ()
Jockey: Alexis Ariel Allois
Weight: 57kg
Prize Money: $22,793
Win / Place: 17% / 70%

Jockey / Horse Combo

5 yo Chestnut Horse

Sire: GURISITO ROY (ARG)

Dam: GRAND RIKU (ARG)

100

Rating

Stats

Career

17: 3-6-3

Distance

16: 3-6-3

Trk/Dst

16: 3-6-3

Track

16: 3-6-3

Season

3: 2-0-1

1st Up

4: 0-0-1

2nd Up

2: 1-0-1

3rd Up

1: 0-0-0

4th Up

1: 0-1-0

Dirt

17: 3-6-3

Anti-Clockwise

17: 3-6-3

Jockey Stats

Horse

3: 2-0-1

Last 50

0: 0-0-0

Trainer

W 0% P 0%

Distance

W 0% P 0%

Track

W 0% P 0%

Trainer/Track

W 0% P 0%

Trainer/Distance

W 0% P 0%

Distance Range Last 6 months

1000m

Comments

Third-up today. Resuming 3rd of 12 at this track on January 18 over 1000m, 2.25 len behind Maximo Johan with 54kg at $6.70. Second-up won by 1.0 len at this track February 16 over 1000m defeating Senor Eduardo carrying 54kg at $4.10. Should be right in the finish.

Expected Settling Position: No speed data

Last Starts days since last start

Place	Date	Track	Distance	Class	Barrier	Jockey	Weight	Cond.	Race Time	Avg. Speed	Margin	800/400	SP	Days	Prize	Prize Won	Result
1st of 11	16/2/25	Palermo	1000m	ALW CG 5U	12	Alexis Ariel Allois	54kg	FM	0:55.24	65.2 km/h	1.0L	-	$4.10f	29	$9,701	$5,106	1. Grand Roy 2. Senor Eduardo 3. Anteco
3rd of 12	18/1/25	Palermo	1000m	ALW CG 5U	10	Alexis Ariel Allois	54kg	FM	0:58.62	61.4 km/h	2.3L	-	$6.70	148	$9,906	$1,042	1. Maximo Johan 2. Grazias Cat 3. Grand Roy
148 Day Spell
1st of 9	23/8/24	Palermo	1000m	ALW CG 5U	1	Alexis Ariel Allois	54kg	Heavy	0:56.70	63.5 km/h	0.1L	-	$7.25	48	$7,988	$4,271	1. Grand Roy 2. Honrado Mak 3. Il Messaggero
48 Day Freshen-Up
1st of 12	6/7/24	Palermo	1000m	MSW CG 56	6	Francisco L Goncalves	57kg	FM	0:56.04	64.2 km/h	1.5L	-	$4.00f	29	$6,957	$3,544	1. Grand Roy 2. Honrado Mak 3. Go Dark
2nd of 15	7/6/24	Palermo	1000m	MSW CG 4	2	Francisco L Goncalves	57kg	FM	0:56.61	63.6 km/h	0.3L	-	$5.95	21	$8,173	$1,508	1. Soy Lirico 2. Grand Roy 3. Salviano
2nd of 15	17/5/24	Palermo	1000m	MSW CG 4	7	Francisco L Goncalves	57kg	FM	0:55.87	64.4 km/h	0.8L	-	$6.35	39	$4,767	$804	1. Wolfsburgo 2. Grand Roy 3. Lobo De Estepa
39 Day Freshen-Up

Hello Champ (5) 21x4x98x55
Trainer: Jorge Luis Rivollier ()
Jockey: Emiliano Fabrizio Siniani
Weight: 57kg
Prize Money: $17,946
Win / Place: 6.25% / 50%

5 yo Chestnut Horse

Sire: HORSE GREELEY (USA)

Dam: HELLO DEAR (ARG)

Rating

Stats

Career

16: 1-4-3

Distance

13: 1-4-3

Trk/Dst

13: 1-4-3

Track

16: 1-4-3

Season

4: 0-0-0

1st Up

5: 0-0-0

2nd Up

3: 0-0-0

3rd Up

1: 0-0-1

4th Up

1: 0-1-0

Dirt

16: 1-4-3

Anti-Clockwise

16: 1-4-3

Jockey Stats

Horse

3: 0-0-0

Last 50

0: 0-0-0

Trainer

W 0% P 0%

Distance

W 0% P 0%

Track

W 0% P 0%

Trainer/Track

W 0% P 0%

Trainer/Distance

W 0% P 0%

Distance Range Last 6 months

1000m - 1400m

Comments

Third-up today and placed third-up in the past. Resuming 5th of 7 at this track on February 8 over 1000m, 3 len behind Sir Amadeus with 57kg at $28.35. Second run from a spell 5th of 7 at this track on February 17 over 1100m, 8 len behind Grilldado carrying 57kg at $8.80. Favour others today.

Expected Settling Position: No speed data

Last Starts days since last start

Place	Date	Track	Distance	Class	Barrier	Jockey	Weight	Cond.	Race Time	Avg. Speed	Margin	800/400	SP	Days	Prize	Prize Won	Result
5th of 7	17/2/25	Palermo	1100m	ALW CG 5U	3	Emiliano Fabrizio Siniani	57kg	FM	1:02.10	63.8 km/h	8.8L	-	$8.80	9	$4,749	$128	1. Grilldado 2. Alabama City 3. War Flashbacks
5th of 7	8/2/25	Palermo	1000m	ALW CG 5U	5	Emiliano Fabrizio Siniani	57kg	FM	0:56.04	64.2 km/h	3.0L	-	$28	77	$9,583	$264	1. Sir Amadeus 2. Wish You Luck 3. La Puketa
77 Day Spell
8th of 8	23/11/24	Palermo	1400m	ALW CG 5U	8	Gustavo Emiliano Calvente	57kg	FM	1:22.42	61.2 km/h	41.8L	-	$27	40	$9,994	$204	1. Le Andan Buscando 2. Rufinito Brutal 3. Optimus King
40 Day Freshen-Up
9th of 9	14/10/24	Palermo	1200m	ALW CG 5U	4	Emiliano Fabrizio Siniani	57kg	FM	1:10.98	60.9 km/h	8.5L	-	$25	427	$9,518	$199	1. Bajo El Cielo 2. Sol Sorpresivo 3. Big Tiger
427 Day Spell
4th of 7	14/8/23	Palermo	1000m	ALW CG 42	4	Kevin Banegas	57kg	FM	0:54.33	66.3 km/h	9.5L	-	$3.75f	133	$7,878	$453	1. Talento Nato 2. Cerrito Pinon 3. Filho
133 Day Spell
1st of 9	3/4/23	Palermo	1000m	ALW CG 3	8	Brian Rodrigo Enrique	56kg	Heavy	0:56.98	63.2 km/h	2.0L	-	$5.05	28	$11,126	$5,982	1. Hello Champ 2. Kerendon 3. Soy De Sarmiento

Jim Malone (6) x2615x7x58
Trainer: Jorge Dario Ruvelli ()
Jockey: Mario Ruben Nunez
Weight: 57kg
Prize Money: $12,582
Win / Place: 6.67% / 26%

5 yo Chestnut Horse

Sire: GRAND REWARD (USA)

Dam: SO SEXY (ARG)

Rating

Stats

Career

15: 1-2-1

Track

9: 1-2-0

Season

3: 0-0-0

1st Up

6: 0-1-0

2nd Up

4: 0-1-0

3rd Up

2: 1-0-0

4th Up

2: 0-0-1

Turf

1: 0-0-0

Dirt

14: 1-2-1

Fast

1: 0-0-0

Anti-Clockwise

15: 1-2-1

Jockey Stats

Horse

0: 0-0-0

Last 50

0: 0-0-0

Trainer

W 0% P 0%

Distance

W 0% P 0%

Track

W 0% P 0%

Trainer/Track

W 0% P 0%

Trainer/Distance

W 0% P 0%

Distance Range Last 6 months

1000m - 1200m

Comments

Third-up today and won third-up previously. First-up 5th of 14 at this track on January 12 over 1200m, 5 len behind Mambeando with 57.5kg at $21.10. Last start 8th of 12 at this track on February 8 over 1200m, 8 len behind El Futuro carrying 57kg at $18.05. Needs to find lengths to test these.

Expected Settling Position: No speed data

Last Starts days since last start

Place	Date	Track	Distance	Class	Barrier	Jockey	Weight	Cond.	Race Time	Avg. Speed	Margin	800/400	SP	Days	Prize	Prize Won	Result
1st of 11	28/2/25	Palermo	1000m	ALW CG 5U	11	Mario Ruben Nunez	57kg	Heavy	0:57.29	62.8 km/h	1.5L	-	$10	20	$5,361	$2,553	1. Jim Malone 2. Che Mafioso 3. Soy Lirico
8th of 12	8/2/25	Palermo	1200m	ALW CG 5U	3	Sergio Antonio Piliero	57kg	FM	1:09.46	62.2 km/h	8.8L	-	$18	27	$9,701	$204	1. El Futuro 2. Mr. Lurro 3. Voy Con Onda
5th of 14	12/1/25	Palermo	1200m	ALW CG 5U	14	Sergio Antonio Piliero	57.5kg	FM	1:11.79	60.2 km/h	5.3L	-	$21	118	$9,906	$261	1. Mambeando 2. Classic Night 3. Pine Gap
118 Day Spell
7th of 9	16/9/24	Palermo	1200m	ALW CG 5U	5	Sergio Antonio Piliero	57kg	FM	1:09.74	61.9 km/h	8.8L	-	$8.20	126	$4,644	$172	1. Winning Keller 2. Un Tornillo 3. Juanfer
126 Day Spell
5th of 10	13/5/24	Palermo	1200m	ALW CG 4	6	Sergio Antonio Piliero	57kg	FM	1:09.63	62.0 km/h	12.0L	-	$7.80	49	$5,093	$124	1. Que Abogado 2. Big Tiger 3. Asi Que Bueno
49 Day Freshen-Up
1st of 11	25/3/24	Palermo	1200m	MSW CG 4	7	Sergio Antonio Piliero	57kg	FM	1:10.13	61.6 km/h	2.5L	-	$7.45	38	$3,836	$2,019	1. Jim Malone 2. A Tu Manera 3. Idolo De Viento
38 Day Freshen-Up

Sol Sorpresivo (7) 2231296330
Trainer: Horacio Oscar Monaiser ()
Jockey: Jairo Emanuel Flores
Weight: 57kg
Prize Money: $19,023
Win / Place: 10% / 50%

5 yo Chestnut Horse

Sire: SOL PLANET (ARG)

Dam: SORPRESA LINDA (ARG)

Rating

Stats

Career

20: 2-4-4

Distance

2: 1-1-0

Trk/Dst

2: 1-1-0

Track

14: 1-3-3

Season

8: 1-1-3

1st Up

3: 0-1-0

2nd Up

2: 1-0-0

3rd Up

2: 0-0-0

4th Up

2: 0-1-1

Dirt

20: 2-4-4

Anti-Clockwise

20: 2-4-4

Jockey Stats

Horse

0: 0-0-0

Last 50

0: 0-0-0

Trainer

W 0% P 0%

Distance

W 0% P 0%

Track

W 0% P 0%

Trainer/Track

W 0% P 0%

Trainer/Distance

W 0% P 0%

Distance Range Last 6 months

1000m - 1400m

Comments

Comes here off a 51-day let-up. At the latest run ran last of 11 at this track on January 18 over 1400m, 28 len behind Loco De Oro carrying 57kg at $23.55. The start before that 3rd in a small field at this track on January 6 over 1200m, 7 len behind Dom Eloi carrying 57kg at $3.80. Can make amends.

Expected Settling Position: No speed data

Last Starts days since last start

Place	Date	Track	Distance	Class	Barrier	Jockey	Weight	Cond.	Race Time	Avg. Speed	Margin	800/400	SP	Days	Prize	Prize Won	Result
11th of 11	18/1/25	Palermo	1400m	ALW CG 5U	4	Facundo Marcelo Coria	57kg	FM	1:24.67	59.5 km/h	28.0L	-	$24	12	$10,644	-	1. Loco De Oro 2. Tamarisco Cat 3. Vertice Scat
3rd of 6	6/1/25	Palermo	1200m	ALW CG 5U	6	Facundo Marcelo Coria	57kg	FM	1:09.43	62.2 km/h	7.0L	-	$3.80f	10	$4,640	$522	1. Dom Eloi 2. Basko Texano 3. Sol Sorpresivo
3rd of 10	27/12/24	Palermo	1400m	ALW CG 5U	1	Facundo Marcelo Coria	57kg	FM	1:22.80	60.9 km/h	4.8L	-	$37	34	$10,362	$1,100	1. Forty Sale 2. Rufinito Brutal 3. Sol Sorpresivo
34 Day Freshen-Up
6th of 8	23/11/24	Palermo	1400m	ALW CG 5U	6	Facundo Marcelo Coria	57kg	FM	1:22.42	61.2 km/h	16.8L	-	$12	6	$9,994	$204	1. Le Andan Buscando 2. Rufinito Brutal 3. Optimus King
9th of 12	17/11/24	Palermo	1200m	ALW CG 5U	5	Facundo Marcelo Coria	57kg	Heavy	1:11.81	60.2 km/h	8.3L	-	$11	34	$9,969	$204	1. Inter Again 2. Full Nostalgioso 3. Locura Cap
34 Day Freshen-Up
2nd of 9	14/10/24	Palermo	1200m	ALW CG 5U	7	Facundo Marcelo Coria	57kg	FM	1:10.98	60.9 km/h	0.8L	-	$20	23	$9,518	$1,796	1. Bajo El Cielo 2. Sol Sorpresivo 3. Big Tiger

Racing and Sports™ Trusted form provider for 20+ years